Joanna Gleason has waited a long time for a play like We Had a World. The last time she did a play in New York was in 2012, Stephen Karam's Sons of the Prophet. That’s because as she’s aged, Gleason found herself being offered fewer substantive parts, especially in the theatre. And since the Tony winner lives in Connecticut now, it needs to be a juicy part, what she calls a “protein” instead of a “decorative radish” kind of role, something that makes it "worth the commute and the schlepping."

Then Joshua Harmon’s We Had a World came across her desk. Harmon based the play on his own life and fraught family dynamics—in particular, how he had a loving relationship with his grandmother Renee while his mother had a pained one. And how two people in one family can have different recollections of the same event, or the same person. Gleason plays Harmon’s loving-yet-complicated grandmother Renee, while Andrew Barth Feldman plays Joshua and Jeanine Serralles plays Ellen, Renee's daughter.

“It’s the best part I think I’ve ever gotten to play, ever, in the theatre,” Gleason says without hesitation. Yes, there’s the Baker’s Wife in Into the Woods. There’s also The Normal Heart, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, and so many more. But for the acting legend, “this one, at this moment in my life, is the best role I could be in…I’m the right age, the right experience. I have grandchildren. I have nine of them. I have grown children.”

But We Had a World also struck an intensely personal chord for Gleason. “I watched my parents die. I watched them die,” she says. Gleason’s father was the famed game show host Monty Hall, while her mother was producer Marilyn Hall. They both died within months of each other in 2017. In We Had a World, the audience sees Renee when she's in her 60s through to her final days. “That thing about being old and infirm really resonated with me, because a lot of it is like my mother, the things she didn’t want to deal with, the things she couldn’t deal with anymore. And I thought, ‘I just want to honor her.’” We Had a World recently extended its run to May 11 at New York City Center Stage II, produced by Manhattan Theatre Club.

Gleason also honors Marilyn Hall in another way—she wrote and shot a feature film The Grotto, which is dedicated to her mother. The film follows a woman named Alice, played by Breaking Bad's Betsy Brandt, whose life is in disarray after her fiancé kills himself. She then discovers that he had left her a struggling nightclub in Joshua Tree, filled with a cast of colorful characters—a handsome chef who plays guitar (played by Steve Kazee), a creative bartender (Vince Swann), a regular who loves to wear kilts (Chris Wells), her fiancé's secret lover (Jonathan Del Arco). The film also has appearances by Lindsay Mendez and Caroline Aaron. And Gleason's son, Aaron, wrote some original songs that are in the film. "I got all my pals to come together and do this," says Gleason happily. The Grotto, which was finished in 2022, finally has a distributor and will have a small theatrical release soon. Gleason is also planning a New York screening in May. 

In the wide-ranging conversation below, Gleason explains how doing the very short-lived Nick & Nora on Broadway (that closed after nine performances) inspired The Grotto. Plus, why she's writing a memoir, her response to Patti LuPone's recent remarks about her, and how the only musical she will do now is A Little Night Music. This conversation has been edited and condensed.

You've said that The Grotto was inspired by something that happened in your own life. Did someone die? Did someone leave you a restaurant? What happened?
Joanna Gleason: No. It's more about being—at that point, I was 40, and my lead character is in her 40s. My entire life, as I knew it, got upended. I divorced [my second husband Michael Bennahum]. I had a very big job and had the rug pulled out from under me. That was Nick & Nora, frankly, that was that musical. Boom! I doubted everything about my choices and my life. I wasn't living full-time with my son. And I just thought, "What does a woman do when she's pretty much midlife and everything she counted on goes away?" So in the movie, her job goes away, the house gets taken away from her, the fiancé dies and leaves this mysterious [question of] who was this guy? And when she realizes that, "I have no idea." It's that line in Into the Woods where the Baker's Wife says, "I'm in the wrong story." It really is about that, like, whose story are you in? And that was the kind of springboard for it. And then my great affection for the men and women in the gay community—they've always held me up and held me together. So I created this place, The Grotto, this nightclub, and there's two characters who pull this woman through and let her see that she's got value in a way she never thought people saw in her.

Does this mean that Steve Kazee's character in the film is based on your husband [Chris Sarandon]? 
[Chuckles] Yes. Because Chris is a cook, he's a chef, he plays guitar, and he's handsome. And I love him, yes.

And you met during Nick & Nora.
Exactly, the worst time. The best thing at the worst.

Nick and Nora was a flop, but you've also been in a hit, Into the Woods. And so, do those things feel different in the moment when they happen?
We had a feeling in Into the Woods, because also it was Steve [Sondheim] and James Lapine. We had a feeling that we were part of something special. And we could tell from the audience reactions, and we could tell just in each individual story in this piece and the music and the choreography—we kind of knew we had something good. From day one when we opened for previews in Nick & Nora with [book writer and director] Arthur Laurents fighting with [composer]  Charles Strouse and [lyricist] Richard Maltby, Jr. and our producers, and nobody agreeing, and things getting cut—Christine Baranski had, like, three new versions of her song, I have four or five new versions of my song at the last minute. We just thought, "This is just a freaking fiasco." Because nobody could reason with Arthur. He should not have directed it. It was not well directed, and it needed cutting, and it needed rewriting. And he did admit later, he took the blame for it not working. But it's us, it's our little asses out there on the line slogging through this thing that didn't work. And yes, you know right away.

How did you and Chris create a relationship in that messy circumstance, because usually it kind of pulls everyone apart?
We all kind of clung together. We were all sort of in the same life raft. My life had fallen apart. I was alone, I didn't have a next job. Was away from my son. Had $0. And Chris was also separated from his family. So there we were, and we would commiserate, and we would talk. And slowly, slowly, we realized that there's something more here. And we started to hang out together. Until one day, a member of the cast put her arm around my waist and said, "Hey, everybody knows you two are falling in love. Just get on with it, because you know you're not young." Okay, all right, yeah, true. And that was 34 years ago.

Wait, how did you have no money in the early '90s? You had just done Into the Woods and a movie with Woody Allen [Crimes and Misdemeanors]?
New York City living. It's not really secure. If I had been lucky enough to be on a hit TV series where, after five, seven years, these people were making gazillions of dollars. But I never did. And if I were in Phantom, and you go for gazillions of years and you have a solid...I admire the people who've been in shows for years and have built their lives. It's admirable. So, yeah, I had to figure out some things really quickly. People took chances with me. Paul Thomas Anderson took a chance with me, with Boogie Nights, a great film to be in. I had done the two Woody Allen movies. I did more movies here and there and here and there. But Chris and I knew, let's move to California, because that's television, you can build a life. And I did. I worked a lot in TV, and he was doing a lot of work. And so we kind of got back on our feet, and things started to come together: a life, a house, more time with our kids, an integrated family. And it was the greatest blessing of my life to meet him.

You had this part of your life that was really rough, and then you persevered. How did it come back around to wanting to fictionalize it into a film?
I was not offered nor did I see roles that I would be good for in the theatre for a long time. Getting older, particularly getting older and not being famous from movies or TV, really (because that has certainly changed the nature of who gets to take the lead roles, more or less). And so I thought, "Okay, you're a character actress. This is what it is. That's theatre, okay. Now television, do you want to be on a series for two years, five years, seven years? What if it doesn't shoot near you, be away from Chris?" No, I don't. What else can I do? So I was teaching. We had sold the house in L.A., so we had some foundation. We moved back here, and then I said, you know, I want to do a show. I want to write an autobiographical show. And I did two for 54 Below. And I had a great, great time doing that. Jeffrey Klitz, my music director, back-up singers, we told a couple of stories about my life.

And then I had been writing screenplays and not showing them to anybody, really. And then I said, "You're just being a little chicken shit. Just take it out of the drawer and just show somebody." And I did, and I showed my friend Todd Shotz, who's a producer, and his production team said, "We want to do this." This was The Grotto. Though first we did a short film, a 14-minute film [Morning Into Night] that I shot up here in Connecticut with all my friends over two days in the dead of winter. And that got into festivals, and that attracted the financier for The Grotto. And then I was surrounded for The Grotto with fantastic people. And I said, "Oh, I want to do this. This is what I want to do." And, of course, in doing this and starting to write a memoir and thinking about putting together another show, this play [We Had a World] landed on my desk, and I said, "Are you going to run away from this? Are you going to pretend that it's too hard, you don't live in New York? Or you going to say yes?" 

Because it's the best part I think I've ever gotten to play, ever, in the theatre. Now, take musicals aside, take Into the Woods out of the equation. I've done fabulous roles—The Normal Heart was a great role. Sons of the Prophet was a great role. There have been terrific roles. But this one, at this moment in my life, is the best role I could be in.

There's a scene in the play where Renee doesn't want to go see her husband in the hospital because she doesn't want to deal with it. I know in interviews, you've said that your parents also had a really hard time with accepting the fact that they were getting older and sicker. Has that been really tough for you to just have to kind of recreate that? Or is it cathartic?
It's cathartic also because Joshua Harmon is such a good writer. It's so beautiful and it's cathartic, and it makes me understand how I want to try to live the, God willing, remaining couple of decades if I can. And the burdens I don't want to place on our kids, emotionally or otherwise. Also, how you give up vanity at a certain age—all right, girl, just lean into it, because it's here. It's been a catharsis. It's also been just a release of the tension of what it is for a woman to get older.

You do look fabulous in the play, that wig!
That wig is amazing. It's amazing. When I first put it on, I went [gasp]. And then I went, "Oh, I kind of like it. I'll be okay."

What the character Joshua deals with in the play is the contradictions of his grandmother. We see her from his perspective. But in playing her, how do you reconcile the contradictions?
Well, there are things you hide from the people you love. You love your grandson, you hide. I don't want to give away the story, but  it's how you present yourself. But she has no filter when it comes to her daughter, Ellen. I think there was also an element of the jealousy that here is a lawyer, a woman with three kids who love her, a woman without the baggage that Renee carries, and she's still young, she's still vital. And I think there's that jealousy as Renee watches herself get older and has succumbed to multiple illnesses, some self-inflicted. So I start to look at my mother and say, "There was part of her that my siblings and I never could really know, parts that she didn't really want to reveal to us, and I understand that."

Now that she's gone, have you had that conversation yourself of, like, "What could I have said to her?" And is that something you're infusing into the performance?
It's interesting. Because my sister and I always wanted to take Mom to Paris when she was in her 80s (she died at 90). When she was in her 80s, she was still kind of, up and going, but she didn't want to leave my father, because he was helpless without her, as many men become. What if something happened to me and you're not there? And we kick ourselves. We thought, this would have been the moment to take her. My son (in fact, all our kids, but my son particularly) knows me really well, really well. And he's not afraid to ask questions, and he's not afraid to just get in there. He's not afraid to even, like, analyze me, and he's actually quite good at it. So I feel very confident that when that time comes, we'll be able to do this gracefully. Although, you don't know 'till you get there, but I'm hoping that I will be open. And my father gave us a great gift. My father said, "I'm not afraid to die." That's a gift. I'm not watching a fearful old man. I'm watching a frustrated man; he's frustrated and it's sad for a lot of reasons. But he just kind of went till he hit the wall. Mom shut down. Mom literally closed down and wouldn't get out of bed. And then wouldn't eat, and then she just lost the will. So I had to understand that, too.

You weren't sure if you wanted to do this eight times a week, and you're on stage now almost the entire time. How has it been maintaining?
Happily, I still have the muscle memory of doing that. I've lost nine pounds. I have to eat more carefully, I have to stay hydrated. I just have to sleep as much as I can. Pick the nights that I don't want to drive back [to Connecticut] and just get in bed [in the rental apartment], watch TV. I have to warm up differently, but it's really the same as I always did. This is no different from how it's always been. And I feel quite at home.

How are the quick changes?
Oh, my God, you'll notice nobody else on stage has to change their clothes?

Andrew does on the stage.
Okay, whatever. He's young, and he does it on stage once. I have 15 different looks. I have 11 costume changes. I'm the one who has to run around from entrance to entrance to entrance to changing clothes. I mean, we had to get this down to a science. I have seconds at times, seconds before I have to get back on stage. Give it to the old arthritic lady to have to do all this while you just stand on stage and talk. It's fun. [smiles] I love rising to the challenge, I do.

You were saying earlier how you hadn't come back to the theatre because you hadn't found any roles that really worked for you. What had been missing up until this point?
This is the analogy I use. Sons of the Prophet was a fantastic play. My character was not the protein on the plate. That was Santino [Fontana]. She wasn't even the potato or even the main veg. She was like the decorative radish, the parsley. I wanted to be the protein! [chuckles] And Josh has written a play that has three proteins, three protagonists, and three antagonists, and it's just the three of us. And so I thought, "This is so substantial. This is worth coming back for. This is worth disrupting my home life with Chris. This is worth the commute and the schlepping and the renting and the everything that goes with it. This one's worth it."

I feel like so many people would be surprised at the fact that it's hard for you to get lead roles.
I guess, yeah, maybe. I mean, I have no complaints about my career, none. I also look at roles that I either wasn't up for or didn't get, and I look at the women who play them, and I think they're the absolute best. I could never have done what she did. It's never been one time when I went, "That should have been mine." Never. And, you know, I'm not famous, famous. Look who's on Broadway now, you know what I mean? Look at that. There are these fabulous people who come in, and they are massive international stars, or big television stars, movie stars. And I am not. And I never sought to be, never. But I have no illusions about where I am on the list of people who bring in revenue when producers look at lists of people and what they're worth. And there are these lists: this person is worth so and so to me. And you just go, "Okay, it's a commodity, and that's what I go for on the stock market."

There are niches. You create a niche for yourself. People don't want to know what kind of brains you have; they want you where they last saw you. You know, keep doing that kind of thing. And I've been able to do a lot of different kinds of roles, particularly because I didn't get super famous for one. And that's all I ever wanted to do. I wanted to be an actor.

So I'm guessing the question of, what do you want to do next doesn't feel relevant? Because you don't know until it manifests itself.
Exactly. And what's manifesting right now is my second feature. And maybe directing another opera, and I am writing a memoir and all of that. I'm not looking for the next play. I'm very happy with this play being the experience for now, and if there is another one in the future, I'm not manifesting it right now. 

What about musicals?
Oh no.

That was a fast answer!
Too hard. I don't have that kind of voice. And there are no roles for 75-year-old women who are going to go out, what, and croon a couple of tunes? Wouldn't be a protein. The only exception would in A Little Night Music, "raisins, liaisons." And be in the wheelchair, sing a song and die and go. And have them send a car for you and take you home to Connecticut.

What's your second feature going to be about?
It’s about forgiveness. It’s about the tearing apart of a family and coming together. How do you forgive yourself? Who needs to be forgiven? Who do you really need in your life? Things get shaken up and things are revealed, and down come the repercussions. And then how do you pick up the pieces? Again, it's a woman's story, but there's some fantastic young characters. And I'm excited to see where it goes right now.

How's your memoir coming?
Good. It's slow. I've put it aside. I cannot write while I do this play. I cannot do anything. In half an hour, I'm going to go get acupuncture and physical therapy, because my body is just, things hurt! But the memoir is great fun to write. It's much less about my showbiz career. It's really about my life. And then the showbiz career gets folded into where I was at that time in my life. Because people do want to know the stories. If they're going to pick up a book about me, I imagine it would be to read about some of the experiences I've had and the cast of characters. That will be there. But it's also much more fun to write about who I thought I was and who I became, and who I know myself to be, and those kinds of things.

Did you see the clip of Patti LuPone talking about you while eating hot wings?
Oh, I heard about it. 

Do you have a response to her saying, under egress, that she should have won the Tony in 1988 instead of you?
[chuckles] I just adore her. I think it's funny. I think she always deserves a Tony because she's just amazing every time. So no, there's nothing to respond to. You just have to watch it and laugh and go, I love you. 

You had to take the fall. It was like, Joanna Gleason or a hot wing.
I had to take the fall. You can't get me to eat hot wings for any reason at all.

Now that you're directing films, will you direct a play?
I don't know. It's hard. There's so many variables. There's so much at stake. It's so expensive now. It really is. I don't know. I say that movies are different because they're just like going away to summer camp for three months. But a play somehow feels like, again, I have to figure out how to get into New York. I don't live there. I don't know. I'll never say never. What this play has taught me is, I'll never say never.

close gallery

0 of 12

Photos: Andrew Barth Feldman and Joanna Gleason in MTC's We Had A World

Next Slide  

You may also like

• 
  Photos: Buena Vista Social Club Opens on Broadway
• 
  Photos: B. D. Wong, John Lithgow, More in the Original Production of M. Butterfly
• 
  10 Creative Into the Woods PLAYBILLDER Covers